Chris Errington's Plymouth Argyle Press Box View

“I repeat .... "if we aim to get higher in the league (always one of James Brent's aspirations) why not start with a ground that could more easily accommodate the anticipated higher crowds? Subsequently, if we need to expand still further, why not allow more slack in the system from the off? Why tie our hands at this early stage?" - as you didn't appear to respond to this.

I agree with you that the events of recent years may tend towards engendering cynicism amongst the fans. That is a very good reason why the present owner is being studied very carefully. I am certain that some of the flak that's been thrown at him & his board has been unwarranted but how much falls into that category remains unclear. Equally I have no doubt that some of the criticism has been fully warranted.

I suggest that there would be no surprise at the club at the generally negative reaction to these plans as so far been made available. Even one of his supporter-advisers has expressed surprise at the scaling back from when he had been invited to see the previous draft. That, amongst other reasons contributes to my current cynicism over these plans for consultation. It reminds me of the games played when selling houses. You always ask high and bid low before an accommodation (no pun intended) is reached. The following of a football club is more than the buying & selling of houses. It arouses fundamental passions. I am still not sure that James Brent really understands that.

BUT I WILL suspend my final judgement until the actual plans are made available. I will be happy to be proved wrong.

I'd only add that one person's 'fact' is another's opinion and that 'general consensus' is tautologous. Not that I'd wish to correct your English as I'm sure mine is full of points that could be corrected.

Nice talking with you.”

“The greatest minds are like film, they take the negatives and develop themselves in darkness..."”

“Devonview - to rant is to speak or write in an aggressive manner or to go on passionately. To call HJ's comments a rant was factually correct on the second definition.
If my points were a "last resort", then why would I answer points raised by yourself and HJ in a structured manner?
Debate is great but is much better when people constructively answer points in a way which can be followed, something which correct grammar, punctuation and spelling makes possible.
So, I'll now do this by answering why I believe your points are not correct.
The "if we build it, they will come" argument can easily be countered by the fact that we had a large capacity for our most recent successful period and, after the first season in the Championship, the crowd numbers fell consistently,. Even under Holloway when, by common consent, we were playing good, attacking football with high quality players (Buzsaky, Ebanks-Blake, Halmosi, Norris et al) crowds were well below capacity.
The current figure in this development looks to be around the 17k mark. When the 3 sides were re-developed, they were done so with expansion in mind. The general consensus was that they could be changed quite easily to add a further 2.5k. This would give room for almost 20k, plenty enough, I would have thought, for the next few seasons.
Normal planning process is that ideas are mooted and feedback sought before things are finalised. There are meetings this week at the Theatre Royal where we get to have our say. I would expect there to be changes to the plans after we have all had our input. This is not inside information, just how this type of thing normally works.
I think it is very cynical to believe that we are being shown something then allowed to comment as a way of those showing it demonstrating that they are listening to us. You can take this view but I choose not to.
I have no involvement with the Club other than as a fan but I am heartily sick of all the negative comments etc when we are basically getting a free grandstand. I appreciate there are a lot of things which have happened over the last few years to make us all cynical, negative, etc but I prefer to look at this positively. Once the detailed plans are shown then we can all have our say and, hopefully, get the grandstand we want rather than the one we probably deserve at this moment in time!
As an aside, Hull's ground was paid for by KC, the local telecomms monopoly whose charges are much higher than BT and other providers. Hull FC rugby league play there, providing double the usage and income compared to just football.
Reading's was built with the proceeds from the sale of Elm Park and using profits from the sale for development of the adjoining land - you will see they have a hotel, restaurants, retail park etc. London Irish play there, again double the usage and income.
Cardiff's situation is similar to that at Reading. Initially Cardiff Blues also played there then there was a 35m investment from Malaysia.
So, our situation is similar to that of Reading and Cardiff except that they had money in the bank and additional income from a tenant, where we have neither of these. Hence why they both got the developments they now have and we are having to set our sights at a slightly more realistic level.
Enjoying the debate, by the way.”

“Markemark, some of your points are reasonable (though it's the last refuge of someone faced with a contrary argument to resort to comment on another's spelling and punctuation! And I can't see in HJ's post any hint of a rant.)

To counter your argument - if we aim to get higher in the league (always one of James Brent's aspirations) why not start with a ground that could more easily accommodate the anticipated higher crowds? Subsequently, if we need to expand still further, why not allow more slack in the system from the off? Why tie our hands at this early stage?

You also state, "The facilities look good but it is expected that changes will be made as fans etc are consulted". Do you have inside information? How far do you think that the board will allow modifications to this plan? There's almost an implication there that these early plans are intentionally diminished in order to impress in "conceding" to fans comments. Are you directly involved with the club in any way?

I look forward to seeing the detailed plans rather than the inadequate sketch so far available..”

“HJ - my points are not completely ridiculous, they are structured and thought through, as well as being correctly punctuated and with good spelling.
I suggest you put a proper counter-argument as opposed to a rant.
Our gates are currently 6000+ yet the proposal is for a 17k to 20k stadium. This is not building for the moment, this is building based on gates from our most recent success.
With regards to other cities, their clubs always had excellent support even in lower leagues whereas we could not muster decent (+15k) support even when we were near the top of the Championship, as I pointed out in my post.
I live away from Plymouth as the negativity in the city is pervasive and results in the lack of facilities I listed in my first post. That said, I am a season ticket holder and go to a good few away games.
Look forward to seeing you at Chesterfield HJ?”

“MarkEmark1234 look at what Cardiff,Reading,Hull,Swansea and numerous others have done in some cases doubling capacity and look at where they were and where they are now you will then see your points are completely ridiculous.Plymouth should be building to what is a sensible size for the city and catchment area twenty two thousand to twenty three thousand is not a big stadium it is sensible size if you wnat to place the club back with the Cardi*** and Hull's.If these clubs built stadiums to cover what they were getting and not what felt they could get their stadiums would be four to six thousand seaters.People in Plymouth must stop this ludicrous parochial attitude and start asking why they can't match similar and often smaller sized cities.”

“To the doubters:
1. You cannot build a stadium for just the odd game which sells out, you have to build for your anticipated crowds plus some room for growth;
2. Average gates in Championship were around 13000, capacity with new stand will be around 17000 with 2500 "easily" added to the "old" stands;
3. Holloway resigned November 2007 and we were near the top of the Championship but crowd was still only 12000 ish;
4. The facilities look good but it is expected that changes will be made as fans etc are consulted;
5. We're getting it for free and we get to keep all the revenue from the new stand.
So stop being so negative and get behind the club on this one.
Maybe the famous Plymothian negativity, as demonstrated many times on this and other websites, might explain why Exeter has a John Lewis, Ikea, Premier League rugby team, airport, motorway, etc.”

“If Chris Errington is supposed to be a football expert maybe he could explain why every other club who have improved their facilities have increased their capaities.Prehaps he could also explain why Plymouth Argyle are suposed to be happy having what equates to the smallest stadium for a city of it's size in the country.Prehaps he could also explain how a pathetic stand as suggested could be adequately integrated into an expanded stadium without looking ridiculous.Finally maybe he could tell us why a club who have sold out a twenty thousand capacity stadium only a few years ago are suggesting a capacity way below this figure even though they would be the only club in the country to do such a thing.As a side note Bristol Rovers are planning a twenty two thousand ground and I see Brighton got Twenty eight thousand in yesterday even Exter Chiefs are planing a Twenty one thousand ground.Don't believe the hype this development is not in any way in the interest of Plymouth Argyle or the city in general it's just the same old same old we have come to expect.”

“I find this talk of the "Mayflower Grandstand" confusing. All the time I've sat there (30 years) there's been the Grandstand (upper tier seating) and the Mayflower (lower tier seating). Now that the structure is on the point of demolition it seems to have been re-named.

As for the design, well, the best that can be said is that it will rival Plainmoor's "Bristow's Bench" and Exeter's "Stagecoach Family Stand". Hardly a ringing endorsement.”