Call for truth over Plymouth's naval future
THE Government was today urged to come clean over the future of Devonport’s frigate fleet after a senior defence source said the warships would move to Portsmouth.
Politicians and business leaders insisted Whitehall should make an immediate announcement after the latest leak appeared to confirm speculation that Plymouth would lose its 11 Type 22 and 23 vessels and thousands of service personnel.
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South West Devon MP Gary Streeter told the Government to ‘be brave and give us the bad news’.
Charles Howeson, chairman of the Plymouth Area Business Council, said losing the ships would change the naval base, with it losing virtually all its fleet, and pressed the Government to ‘come clean early’.
City council leader Vivien Pengelly said the leak was ‘either a piece of kite flying by the Navy’s ‘other city’ or shows the Ministry of Defence’s complete disdain for its long and deep relationship with Plymouth’.
The Tory councillor said: “The time has come for the Ministry of Defence to do what they have promised – give us the complete story on Devonport’s future role.”
The leaked information was seen by defence industry sources as part of a ‘softening up process’ before the official release of devastating news.
The Ministry of Defence, however, denied any decision on the ships had been made and said there was no date for the Maritime Change Programme announcement.
And Sutton’s Labour MP Linda Gilroy said she had spoken to Armed Forces Minister Bob Ainsworth and said the leaked information was ‘wrong’. But she said this was because ‘no decisions have been made’.
When Mr Ainsworth visited Plymouth in February he apologised for the city being kept in suspense, but stressed Devonport would act as a base-port for frigates for the next five years, although the decision could be reviewed within that time.
Mrs Gilroy reiterated ‘there will be no change for five years’ and added: “There are thousands of people in this city that would give their eye teeth for five years’ certainty.”
But she said the naval base could expect change, there could be ‘comings and goings’, but that this, and what the city might ‘gain’, would be made clear in ‘the coming weeks’.
“There are opportunities as well as threats,” she said.
But Mr Streeter told The Herald: “I’m 99 per cent certain this decision has been taken. I think a formal announcement will come in the next few weeks. We are expecting the frigates to go. We need to plan for what comes next.”
The Tory MP said losing the frigates could mean between 1,000 and 4,000 people, including highly-skilled, well-paid, service personnel, leaving the area.
“It’s going to be a kick in the guts,” he said. “We are talking about the impact on the local economy and what happens to that (naval base) real estate. Is the Government going to put money up to make it viable for commercial use?”
But he said that while confirmation would mean ‘a very black day’ for the city, he also stressed: “It’s not the end of Plymouth. It has a future after the frigates. But we can’t start planning that until they tell us.”
Plymouth has been on tenter hooks for more than a year since ‘senior defence sources’ told a national newspaper that Devonport would lose its surface fleet to Portsmouth leading to closure of the naval base by 2013.
The Government, which decided Britain’s three naval bases would remain after a 2007 a review, stressed Devonport was key to submarine operations, particularly nuclear, although it would lose retiring Trafalgar class vessels and replacement Astutes would go to Faslane.
But speculation continued to grow that the frigates would be transferred, especially after routine frigate maintenance was shifted to Portsmouth last June.
MoD sources now say it ‘makes sense’ to have all the frigates and destroyers in Portsmouth. The source reportedly told the BBC: “Portsmouth is the home of the Royal Navy and it will be the home of the operational fleet.”
Mrs Pengelly, who accused Mr Ainsworth of backtracking, said Plymouth needed to know what ships would be here and for how long.
She wanted answers on what surface ship refit work would be committed to Devonport, what the Government’s intention was on dismantling nuclear submarines and how the city would be compensated for any loss of service personnel and jobs related to the frigates.
“The Government needs to come clean and start a sensible dialogue with us on what it will do to help us deliver regeneration and growth,” she said.
Mr Howeson said he believed the frigates would be moved, and said: “This is bound to affect the city’s economy, not just in terms of support for that considerable number of ships but also because of the large number of families who support our secondary economy. It could lead to a significant population shrinkage.”
Tim Jones, chairman of the Devon and Cornwall Business Council, said losing the warships would be ‘devastating’ and demanded a ‘taskforce’ be set up to deal with the fallout.
52 Comments
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by Ben Gillespie, London
Sunday, April 19 2009, 12:04AM
“Calm down everyone, no decision has been made yet. However, very worrying rumours!”
by Bob, Fife
Friday, April 17 2009, 8:51PM
“This is a massive blow to Plymouth and the area! I work in Rosyth, and have done for 13 years. The whole business with Naval base closure was done and dusted by the time I started there, but this news raises fresh questions! The new submarines that will replace the Devonport based T class will be based in Faslane and won't ever need refuelling, so that lucrative market will disappear soon too! What will Devonport be left with? Will it be long before Ocean, Albion and Bulwark head east too???. A far cry from last years news reports claiming that Devonport will be better off than Portsmouth with the Naval Defence Review!! I think its an absolute sin seeing as Plymouth is by far a nicer place than Portsmouth, a far more capable base than Portsmouth and has a workforce that has come so much further than that employed by BVT in Portsmouth! Been to both places frequently and have seen the difference in the two yards. Night and day! I even saw a Pompey docky fishing off a Cassion once! outstanding! The biggest worry is my company, Babcock has the reigns in Devonport now. The close down kings! They dice, and they slice till they have something worth keeping! This sort of news isn't going to be anything new to a company who bought the place for £350m 18months ago! Got to be a bigger game plan going on!!!”
by Bulldogger, UK not EU.
Friday, April 17 2009, 3:46PM
“BlueAden, Portsmouth has an entirely valid point, and there's no point crying in your beer when the opportunity to prevent this happening was enthusiastically thrown away by West Country self-importance and its associated and considerable ignorance.
In the D-Day celebrations of 1994, just a little before the events, came the famous and idiotic Plymouth Evening Herald Headline 'DON'T GO TO PORTSMOUTH, MR. PRESIDENT'. Followed only a little later by leering and crowing of the loss of the Refit Contracts from Scotland to Devonport (to a company I wouldn't entrist the repair of a fibreglass canoe to, without knowing it would come out six weeks late, with the original leak unrepaired and another ten faults having appeared in the period....) the most insulting display of self-satisfaction in destroying jobs elsewhere seen in this country in decades.
What went around has now come around.
Welcome to your bitter pill. It will go well with your sour grapes on display here.”
by Will W, Portsmouth
Thursday, April 16 2009, 11:11PM
“Will (Gosport) you are wrong when you say there isn't enough accom for sailors...there is plenty of room at Fort Blockhouse plus all the other local establishments! Portsmouth has all the required infrastructure. Face it the ships are moving! That doesn't mean Plymouth Dockyard doesn't have a future as it will probably become an Amphip Centre (RM)...there will be some 'gains'.”
by Will, Gosport
Thursday, April 16 2009, 10:45PM
“Glad I left the Mob in answer to your final question the Councilors and Politicains are paid more than us Service Personnel. However, when the Rises were announced I was delighted to discover that the Politicians and Councilors had the pay rises reduced.
Also on the note of Politicians and Councilors who have so much say in the running of the Country a question i am keen to know is why do we have a Rank Structure in our services who are specialised to get to reach Rear Admiral, General etc but it is the Policticians/ Councilors who have no idea of what really happens who get to say where are forces will serve.”
by Will, Gosport
Thursday, April 16 2009, 10:32PM
“I'm from Plymouth but live in Gosport other side of Portsmouth. Realistically, I can't see Plymouth's fleet moving up here. From what I can see there is no real estate to accomodate the service personnel equally it will be tight if they will get the whole of the fleet into Portsmouth. When the American Aircraft Carrier came in last week it anchored of the Isle of Wight and the personnel were transported by ferry because the carrier was too big to fit in to Portsmouth and the Navy have just ordered a couple of Aircraft Carriers similar to the one that visited. If the Americans were unable to dock into Portsmouth what hope have the new aircraft carriers got or even a new fleet got.
Personal opinion I don't think it will happen and Plymouth will always be threatened of closure but suspect it never will. I appreciate this is not reassuring for the People of Plymouth who rely on the yard.
And as Fj states this has been on the cards for ages even as far back as I sat the Apprenticeship exam at Goschen Yard in 87 and Plymouth Yard is still here.”
by Michael Potillo, Newsnight Comfy Sofa
Thursday, April 16 2009, 9:25PM
“I take note of your thoughts oxo and I think with a little more twisting of my arm I will get my backside off this comfy sofa analysing newsnight and come to the rescue of the country and once again sort out the mess that is our Armed Forces”
by oxo, plympton
Thursday, April 16 2009, 8:56PM
“Linda Gilroy needs to talk to Frank. If my daughter came out with the nonsense she spouted here, i'd have her tested on the spot. No wonder this city,sorry, i correct myself, country is a joke. So called experts, supposedly representing us,and not a smidgen of a clue whom we are and what we require. Work,health,education, lack of crime........too much to ask?
I'm not of any particular political persuasion, but i will say this. Vote the free riders out. Choose that person with teeth who isn't afraid to bite, let alone bare them.
As i work within said establishment, i wish i could put across my true feelings, but i imagine my colourful language would be a tad blue for some cotton wooled shell likes.”
by Glad I left the mob, Plymouth
Thursday, April 16 2009, 8:48PM
“This is absolutely disgraceful news, I joined the Navy in 96 and how spooky that as soon as Labour were elected in 97 the cost cutting, spin and overall decline of the armed forces started.... I voted with my feet after hearing the same broken promises over and over from the white collar chimps in Whitehall, examples are as follows:
1) Announced by the Captain of a type 22 frigate to the whole ships company in June 2004: Today I have received a signal from Whitehall declaring that after our forthcoming deployment to the gulf has ended no more type 22 frigates (NB: All 4 type 22 frigates are currently Plymouth based) will be deployed to the gulf area, the roles required within the gulf will be fulfilled by type 23 frigates, the deployment ended in December 2004, the ship in question was relieved of gulf duties by a type 22 frigate and has since returned to the gulf 4 more times to date, each time relieving or being relieved by a type 22 frigate.
2) When the "fair" system of topmast was introduced to restrict the ammount of time a sailor spends away from their base port within a 3 year period the officer giving the presentation stated "The benefits of this fairer system is that all sailors once they have amassed the maximum number of days away from base port will have to have a mandatory period of down time in their base port" The small print then changed to include time spent on professional courses available at units in Portsmouth is in fact base port time for a Plymouth based sailor.
3) To bring all 3 services into line on the same pay rates the sea going pay sailors used to receive when attached to a ship suddenly became "Time spent at sea after a 10 day period pay" and to add further insult to if you lived ashore in a property you had bought with your hard earned pennies you became worse off as you were not entitled to the new "Unpleasant living conditions pay" is it strange that a lot of peoples mortgages dissappeared into their partners or parents names??
Now that was all true and here are some more common sense facts that have been overlooked by our wonderfully degree educated naval brass and politicians:
1) It is half a days sailing for a ship to get from Portsmouth to Plymouth, a frigate uses more fuel in a days cruising than a family car will ever use in its entire lifetime As FOST (sea trainer for all ships) is still to be based in Plymouth there is absolutely no cost saving involved by moving the frigates to Portsmouth just more fuel costs to be laid out, the only winners here are actually going to be SHELL/BP/ESSO/ whoever supplies the navy with fuel.
2) Portsmouth real estate is valued at a much higher level than Plymouth and as Plymouth boasts the biggest dockyard in western europe and can accomodate all surface ships, why not sell off Portsmouth to investors at a higher rate to raise funds? If the admiralty argue that they need to have a naval base closer to Whitehall, why not move Whitehall to a more accessible area, such as a dockyard?? If they need to be able to communicate with the Houses of Parliment have these dodery old dears not heard about the developments in secure communications with video conferencing, emails, faxes? I doubt it as we all know they like to leave laptops and documents marked "TOP SECRET" on the trains and in the back of London black cabs.
3) Stop wasting money changing branch badges and designs of rank badges every five minutes and destroying the history behind the badge.
4) Why waste money producing long, lengthy misleading and confusing brochures to service people who dont want to read them and just put them in the bin?
5) How much pension does a retired Admiral receive? Answer: they dont receive a pension, they retire on full pay. How is this right when even Sir Fred of bailed out (no pun intended) RBS fame has to fight to receive his albeit questionable pension, he still wont receive full pay. Also if you are reading this as an ex servicema”
by BlueAden, Portsmouth
Thursday, April 16 2009, 7:56PM
“You all seem to forget that due to your inept support the RN lost Chatham and it looked very much like Portsmouth would go in the 1981 review. How times change and those with memories will not feel the slightest remorse at Plymouths hopeful demise in favour of the only true home of the Royal Navy and vastly superior workforce and locality of Portsmouth.”