Trash talk in City of Culture bid: We should not stoop to his level

“@newplymouth

I see that much of the research contained within the document is based on questionnaires and that, out of an ESTIMATED 140,000 visitors in total only 348 questionnaires were achieved.

Based on the extrapolation of information which primarily assumes those 348 visitors to be truly representative of the remaining (estimated) 140,000 further assumptions were made. For instance, the figure of 60,000 visitors being on the Hoe and the other two locations was based, primarily, on what amounts to a 'good guess'.

The Herald would have based its headline figures on this report as would any other organisation seeking to promote future events and quote high numbers to justify them.

I think what a lot of ordinary people see, though, is a sort of 'emperors clothes' effect where assumption is based on estimate and projection is based on restricted and non-representative research. What we end up with is the ever repeating scenario of local businesses and local people commenting 'I don't recall it being that busy' or 'my takings were very poor' etc.

I always take 'reports' such as this from 'our' Uni with a pinch of salt to be used as a contribution to any decision process and not as absolute gospel. It would be very interesting to apply similar research to, say, a chess board. Just a few random samples would likely not reveal that is was chequered in nature. More likely it would predict the whole panel to be grey, black or white.

Culture, as I have written previously, comes from study and application. Plymouth is a great place to study - but so many other places are equally great if not better. Sadly, so little application seems to follow. Without that, could 'city of culture' ever be anything for Plymouth but a label?”

“More dross on this waste of taxpayers money, heres an idea pcc spend money on much neglected public services rather then winning a competition noone but those with some interest in the bid give a damm about......and as for newplymouth, said it before ill say it again, pcc plant, only ever posts here when its bigging up some event, as see through as glass.”

“@winstonsmithO

Thank you for your gracious posting
We may always disagree albeit in a civilised way on the benefits of the Culture Bid and agree such estmates are always open to different interpretation. My source document is in fact a 25 page work which you can find via the following link:
http://tinyurl.com/ahmjp37
I only used the word our Uni because I am very proud of what Plymouth University has acheived for the City both in academic, cultural and economic terms.
Whatever the margin of error in the £10m it seems a good return on the £225k the Council says it has spent on the Americas Cup.
My only vested interest in the Culture Bid is the aspiration that Plymouth becomes a more civilised, broad minded City with increased economic benefits. I do believe these benefits exist as they have flowed to other Cities.
I know its only an anecdote but I have heard a major European Bank relocated to the City of London not only because of light touch regulation and favourable taxation of Non Doms but because of the Royal Opera House”

“@newplymouth

Thank you for your figures - greatly appreciated.

What I fail to see, however, is evidence. It is easy to refer to 'estimates' from 'our' university but perhaps you have overlooked the fact that you speak in moderate anonymity so, as far as I know, the 'our uni' to which 'you' refer might be Plymouth Massachusetts!

I'm not trying to decry your obvious efforts to big up the effects of the Americas Cup on this rather desperate city, but I hope you can appreciate how difficult it is for people to trust figures that appear, from their own points of view, to be plucked out of the sky when at ground level there did not seem to be all that much interest. Local businesses reported poor turnover.

It is one thing to suggest a figure (estimate) of £10 million but would that not mostly be money changing hands at levels the majority of Plymouth people would never hear of such as worldwide network income? Let's face it; the Americas Cup is something of a self perpetuating device which exists purely to keep itself in existence! It's a bit like all the other 'X factor' formats that now grace our screens. Everything is profit driven - it is a package deal, nothing more. They would be happy to set up anywhere they think they will profit the most.

The scant pickings that would actually fall through the tiny cracks in the media table would scarcely keep Plymouth businesses going for long - most of the money you refer to goes back to the Americas cup and the media circus that is tighly knitted to it.

But thank you nonetheless for placing a reasonable argument. Whether it can be applied to 'city of culture' or not is another question. With a city so insular in both its natural location and its people one must wonder whether our political elite are up to it when they cannot even ensure the roads are fit for purpose and are happy to sign over 'our' assets to overseas businesses in the belief 'we' will somehow benefit. (I refer to the incinerator and the dockyard specifically but not exclusively).

Personally, I find Plymouth a city of desperation on two distinct levels; desperation by many just to survive and desperation by the few, who aspire to being something they are certainly not, to appear cultured and 'superior' - no matter how much it costs the rest of us.

To me, a city of culture is one where people care far more about each other and show it.

I will try to keep an open mind.”

“@lefkos

Neither am I an elderly moaner..well, I'm not elderly anyway.”

“This is a curious forum to follow on topics involving the city of culture bid. I sense a desperation from 'newplymouth' who pops up frantically at every opportunity to push this subject favourably but puts no meat on the bones of HOW they will see it benefit the city. Therefore I sense a personal (income) benefit for them - and who knows - a bit of personal glory by fame in the local cheap comic; sorry - The Herald. By the way - we are not all quite elderly moaners.”

“@soultoucher
I fail t see what is wrong with the £10m figure which comes from a long research document from our Uni, full of very credible methodology; also if you don't trust the Herald's figure on the cost to the Council of the Americas Cup you can always issue a FOI request to them I would still like to see some analysis on why you and others feel the Culture Bid is not financially sensible.

BTW Did you see the posting on another story saying

"Shame Plymouth has such a group of elderly moaners.

Nothing to fear though. There's a generation coming through that is determined to be proud of the city. And allow the oldies to chunter in their deckchairs."

No I am not in the pay of the Council!"”

“@newplymouth

Although I'm grateful that you've omitted name-calling in this post, I'm less impressed with your figures for Winston. I was expecting to see hard numbers not estimates that have been inflated for PR reasons, however 'cautious'.
You fail to understand Plymothians and your posts are full of childish put-downs and patronising remarks.
So we are cynical, ok, but that's because we've been let down so many times by the run of useless councillors that have left Plymouth neglected.
I think I can safely say that the majority of readers don't trust our councillors as far as they can spit and nothing you can post, no derogatory comments or attempts to make people feel they're somehow letting their city down will ever make a difference.
IMHO (in my honest opinion, you use this in almost every post) You are here to 'talk up' the latest PR moves, and must be getting paid for your efforts.”

“@winstonsmithO
Following my posting just now about the financial benefits of the Americas Cup to Plymouth of circa £10m here is the source data of the research published by our Uni/ Sirio

"The total direct expenditure of visitors to the America‟s Cup event, at £2,635,000, is significant. Taking into account indirect and induced multiplier effects, the overall impact of visitor spend is estimated at around £4,110,600. When the estimated impact of the teams, organiser spend and media value is taken into account this rises to a cautious estimate of around £9,930,000."

I look forward to some equally intellectually rigourous data from the Doubting Thomses now on why the Culture Bid is not wothwhile!!”

“Here are the numbers which were carried in the Herald about a year ago;
Econonic Benefits to Plymouth £10m
Cost of event to Council £225k”